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What would you change?

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Malrubius View Drop Down
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Jonas Bailey

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Malrubius Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: What would you change?
    Posted: 12 November 2013 at 3:26pm
Yah, so....let's say YOU are in charge of making whatever changes you want to the rules with the only restrictions being all current PCs and items still exist (tho they may function differently).


What would you change?
Hobbes: "What kind of nut would *care* about all this?"Calvin: "*EVERYONE!* This is hard data! It lets you quantify your enjoyment!"
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Malrubius Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 November 2013 at 3:40pm
I'll go first! Big smile

Combat: I'd change combat. My perception, personally, is that most combats are a bunch of yelling, guessing, and thinking other people are cheating, or bad at math, or making mistakes.
(And I think I've done all of those at one time or another, personally, sometimes more than one at a time)
What would I change about it? I think going amorphous would be a good thing, and I think existing SAS could be modified to support this. Double and triple subtraction math, in combat, and point pool tracking IMHO just. does. not. work.  I know some folks will come along to say, "I've always done my math right and never ever made any mistakes, ever!", to them I say, "Good for you!". For the rest of us it kinda sucks.

What are the primary advantages to limb point pools?
I think the biggest one is: "It just makes sense".  Of course I can take damage individually to my limbs, duh! 
But then...this is a fantasy game, and a game, so, really, it doesn't have to make sense in terms of modelling reality.
The other thing that they provide for, as mentioned by Spencer in another thread, is combat strategy. We all know to try to limb the casters quickly to prevent them from casting. We have Resist Pain, and Electrify, and all these other SAS which function based on limb points.

So then let's unpack that.

First off: How much do you as a caster enjoy having somebody take one of your (lightly armored) limbs and being essentially unable to do anything cool until you get that fixed?

Second off: Beyond "limb the casters" what real combat advantages and strategy and tactics are we seeing? I'm gonna go out on a limb and say: Not much, if any. Sure you can take a leg off so as to prevent them from running and so you can go deal with other combatants while they have to stay stationary, or, more likely, go jumping about the battlefield on one leg, which is ridiculous and not super safe (I find I like my fully functioning knees more and more as I get older), and kinda a hack of the system. I can remove your arm, and then you can't really fight, and then I win, so really limbing = death by another name.

AND of course we can still have SAS that create a limbing effect, which allows MORE strategic use of those SAS because they'll be the only things that can do that.


How about just "hit the caster while they are casting to disrupt their spell"? Effectively the same but you can't totally remove a PC from a fight, and totally remove their ability to Do Cool Stuff, with just limb hits. I think that's a good thing.




Hobbes: "What kind of nut would *care* about all this?"Calvin: "*EVERYONE!* This is hard data! It lets you quantify your enjoyment!"
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Malrubius View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Malrubius Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 November 2013 at 3:45pm
Magic\customization\gold: The other thing I'd change is how PCs acquire power beyond simply giving them gold and then that gold being turned in to magic items. Or giving players CAP...which they turn to Gold....which they turn to items.

I'd rather see Magic Items be special and cool and do stuff that isn't just another SAS. And I'd rather seem them fairly limited in number (say...1 item per level).

And then take the rest of the...the kinda 'filler' items and move them back to the PC. ANOTHER Xpts of incremental healing item? Yay! Time to upgrade my generic magical sword to another slightly more powerful but equally generic magical sword! So exciting! Not.

But this more a topic for the multi-class and character customization threads.


Hobbes: "What kind of nut would *care* about all this?"Calvin: "*EVERYONE!* This is hard data! It lets you quantify your enjoyment!"
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Malrubius Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 November 2013 at 3:57pm
And finally: I'd change all classes to use points with MAYBE a couple exceptions for certain SAS.
(and mostly I'm thinking of Pick Locks, and Backstab, to be honest)

I know the skill-based classes like having each SAS (or...just Skills I guess) be separate. And...I'd like that too when playing my Knights and Monks. I'd LOOOOOOOOVE to have half my level in Avenging Blows per day AND half my level in No Defense Blows AND half my level in Resist Pain AND...so on.

It's true that Evade does things Dodge Blow doesn't, but I'd probably happily trade having to spend points for each Evade, and precast it, for having half my level in Dodge Blow that I can use on demand.

Additionally there are other things that I think are simplified by moving everybody to points.

Basically: Magic Items. If everything costs points then the cost of magic items can be tied to that point cost in turn. And then you can attach a multiplier based on the class of SAS.
This is just the point-generator model. If a 1pt generator costs 500GP then any SAS costs 500GP per point (and the multiplier, which I'll get to in a sec).
No Defense Blow costs 6pts to use, so that's 3000 gold to buy. If No Defense Blow gets moved to 5th level it now costs 5pts and 2500 gold to buy.

The multiplier to the cost is based on in-game effect. Combat stuff being 2-3x, and everything else being 1-2x. Depending on general utility.

So a 1x per day No Defense Blow is a 3x multiplier, and it's 9000 gold to buy. And it always does "Your Level" in No Defense. No per\point costs, not having to looks up this or that SAS for specific pricing. Nice and simple. And, generally, when I played around with this, the costs were....*roughly* the same.

Additionally if everything is points, and magic items are points, then calculating effective PC power gets simplified as well.

Hobbes: "What kind of nut would *care* about all this?"Calvin: "*EVERYONE!* This is hard data! It lets you quantify your enjoyment!"
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Post Options Post Options   Quote whaddon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 November 2013 at 9:25pm
I have LOTS of ideas here, but as the shepherd of this particular effort, I really don't want to have an agenda that doesn't belong to other people.  I think everyone else should jump on this, though.
If IFGS could just get rid of the games so it could focus on sustaining its own bureaucracy... we would finally be living the Dream.
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Jonas Bailey

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Malrubius Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 November 2013 at 3:28pm
Whew! Somebody else posted! I was worried I'd killed it! ;)


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Post Options Post Options   Quote SidP Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 November 2013 at 5:02pm
No, you didn't kill it but you did nail it to a degree.   This just extends the idea of armor is armor for a simplification of the system.  That's part of why I don't play that much any more, it's too hard to keep track of the numbers, especially at the higher levels, (I hoped I wasn't the only one having trouble), but some, me, are a lot worse at keeping track of the numbers.  So, I rather agree, the whole point is to limb the opponent but then you add in Autocast heal and the limb is back so what's the point?   Yes I know PC vs NPC etc.   But as a guy that's played a fair number of BBG it really gets old when the honerable opponents don't seem to be taking their damage.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote whaddon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 November 2013 at 9:31pm
So, Sid, if we could find a system that made combat math and counting easier while leaving everyone their PCs and items... would that be what you are looking for?
If IFGS could just get rid of the games so it could focus on sustaining its own bureaucracy... we would finally be living the Dream.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote SidP Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 November 2013 at 3:55pm
I have always thought that the math in combat was probably the single biggest deterrent to our system.  I think new players hear the complaint about so and so not taking his damage and think are they talking about me like that when I'm not standing here?   I think that's why a lot of new players don't come back, they can't keep track and they know it, they might think that everyone else does and they feel embarrassed that they can't so they go find something else to do.  
   So, to what degree would the membership at large be willing to sacrifice to simplify the system to make it workable for the average player?
  I don't have a clue.

  I have heard about a different system (no details)  that has been tried in DB, does it work?  Do players like it?  Is it getting widespread buy in?  Is there any discussion of chapter wide conversion?  Is there anyplace we could have a look?  Has it triggered any other ideas?
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Bret Halford Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 November 2013 at 8:23pm
Originally posted by SidP


  I have heard about a different system (no details)  that has been tried in DB, does it work?  Do players like it?  Is it getting widespread buy in?  Is there any discussion of chapter wide conversion?  Is there anyplace we could have a look?  Has it triggered any other ideas?


Hi Sid,

The other system that has been tried in DB is the Ablative Armor Point (AAP) rules system.  You can find the rules and other supporting documents for it at  http://www.dbifgs.org/documents/

From what I've heard and seen, people seem to like it.  More and more games are being written and produced for the AAP rules, but I expect the chapter will continue to support both rules sets for the foreseeable future.

-bret

Bret Halford - DB Secretary - Archivist -    Wundurfli Wel Dun - TH?, Thywilbe Dun CL, Wee Huntum Dun KN
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Post Options Post Options   Quote whaddon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 November 2013 at 5:01pm
For those who don't like reading much, here are the basics:
http://www.coloradofoamforge.com/uploads/8/8/9/7/8897310/aap_rules_primer.docx

or in video form:
If IFGS could just get rid of the games so it could focus on sustaining its own bureaucracy... we would finally be living the Dream.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote brandon_ifgs Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 November 2013 at 4:23pm
I would like to see points of contention removed/reduced in the new rules.  Some of the candidates for this are: Range, Area of Effect, Casting Time, Delays.  Ranges and Area of Effect measured in feet are points of contention.  As are Time in seconds for casting and delays.  Example of less contentious ranges and Area of Effects could look like:

Self [range]                                 The Skill targets the caster only.
 
Touch [range]                             The Skill can affect any legal target that the caster touches with his hand or weapon. If the skill is offensive in nature, or the skill could be construed as uninvited, the player must use his weapon to touch his target. The Touch range should not be construed as permission to touch the target unless permission is explicitly given.
 
Weapon’s Reach [range]               The Skill can affect any legal target that is within his current weapon’s reach. If the character has no weapon in hand then the target must be within range of physical contact. It is important to note that the character does not need to touch the target.
 
Combat [range]                           The Skill can affect any legal target that can be heard by the character. The character can choose to use any volume of voice he desires, from a whisper to a shout.
 
Far [range]                                  The Skill can affect any legal target that can be seen by the character. Typically such Skills are rituals and are not usually used in combat.
 
Self [Area of Effect]                       The Skill only affects the character using the ability.
 
Single [Area of Effect]                   The Skill affects one target specified by the character using the ability.
 
Pair [Area of Effect]                      The Skill affects any two legal targets that are within Weapons Reach of each other. Both targets must be visible to the character at the time he calls his Skill effects.
 
Double [Area of Effect]                  The Skill affects two legal targets that can be seen simultaneously by the character at the time he calls his Skill effects.
 
Triple [Area of Effect]                   The Skill affects three legal targets that can be seen simultaneously by the character at the time he calls his Skill effects.
 
Combat [Area of Effect]     The Skill can affect all legal targets that can be heard by the character. The character can choose to use any volume of voice he desires, from a whisper to a shout.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote brandon_ifgs Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 November 2013 at 4:27pm
I would like to see Character loss be a real option.  I would like Life Spark to be expensive to cast.  I would like to see Raise Dead not be a sure thing.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote brandon_ifgs Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 November 2013 at 4:43pm
I would like to see an "in-game" economy.  A durability property for items.  Items, including magic items, wear-out, degrade over time and have to be replaced.  Acquiring materials as part of treasure, a crafting system to make new items. 
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Post Options Post Options   Quote brandon_ifgs Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 November 2013 at 4:59pm

I would like to see character death not be accidental. If a character is killed in an encounter it is because of a specific action, or because of neglect. Essentially a character would need to be throat slit, or not be attended to with in say 5 min.

If a character reaches zero lifepoints, in addition to falling unconscious, he will also begin bleeding to death. This process takes 5 minutes, at which point the character dies. Any amount of Healing during this time period will also prevent him from Bleeding to Death.

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Post Options Post Options   Quote brandon_ifgs Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 November 2013 at 5:42pm
I would like to see character advancement tied to service. NPC, Staff, or work as an administrator to earn CAP to advance your characters. Play your characters to acquire gold, treasure, and accolades.

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Spencer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 November 2013 at 9:19am
Thank you for answering the question directly. There are some really great ideas in your posts.

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Kye Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 April 2014 at 6:15pm
I would like to see some variance in weapons, and not just a per-class basis.

For example, is there any real advantage for someone to use a max length long sword or great axe? Usually two handed weapons are cumbersome and inferior to anyone with dual wielded weapons or a sword/board combo. Maybe give great weapons a +1 damage boost? Sure, that fighter might swing slow, but pray he doesn't hit you...

This can also be divided into shields. Right now, shields are a yes or no option for every class, instead of possibly categorizing them. Fighters and Knights being able to use max size, and the other shield uses having a slightly smaller shield size restriction. We can even make bucklers a thing, minimum size 15" shields that can be strapped onto an arm and still leave a hand open, thus solving the old ranger-using-a-shield conundrum which I've seen I'm not the only one who dislikes.

On top of this, I think weapon proficiencies need to be cleaned up. Almost half the classes can use any and all weapons, yes still have a non-prof damage listed (maybe for dual wielding?) But, this also makes Weapons Instructor a mostly useless talent. I'd like to see Fighters get prof in ALL weapons, most fighting classes get 3 weapons (maybe 4 for Killing Monks as a specialty bonus), and the ones that have a listed limit remaining the same.

The point of all of this is to highly mix up the combat, encourage a wider variety of fighting styles, and keep people on their toes.


Edit: Oh, also, maybe dividing swords into Short, Long, and Great. 30-36" seems a little long for a short sword sometimes...


Edited by Kye - 24 April 2014 at 6:16pm
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Kye Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 April 2014 at 6:18pm
I would like to see a fame/infamy system, with possible universal class skills accessible only by earning points, like an intimidate or persuade. To make it fair, high level preexisting characters would get freebie points to assign their characters,as at high levels they should have made a ripple in the world and have some modicum of legend behind them.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Kye Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 April 2014 at 6:28pm
I would like to see a crafting system with some unique things you cannot just buy with gold. It'd be hard to implement in-character, methinks, so I'd encourage a crafting system based on CAP points. Offering unique abilities onto items that can only be obtained by staffing will highly encourage more to staff.
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